Women in Advertising: San Francisco (Part 2)

In Part 1 of our interview with five Bay Area women in advertising, we touched on a number of larger themes that tend to come up regularly. If you haven’t read it, make sure to check it out before you read Part 2. In the second half of our interview below, we discuss clients, pay and what women do better than men. Make sure to give us your thoughts in the comments. Agree? Disagree? We want to hear from you.

Linda Harless is an Associate Partner and Director of Creative Resources at Goodby Silverstein & Partners. She was the 16th employee of a company that's currently more than 800.

Shira Bogart is a Group Creative Director at AKQA whose work has been recognized in The One Show, The Clio's, Communication Arts, Archive Magazine, Cannes, The London International Show and the Icon Awards.

Jaime Robinson is a Creative Director at Pereira & O'Dell. Her résumé includes the first social film - “Inside” for Intel and Toshiba and the award-winning LEGO CL!CK campaign.

Kat Gordon is Founder and Creative Director at Maternal Instinct, an agency that specializes in the mom market. She is also the creator of The 3% Conference, highlighting the importance of female creative directors.

Cathy Campbell is a long-time San Francisco freelance Creative Director who has graced many local agencies including TBWA/Chiat Day, Digitas and Saatchi & Saatchi.

How about on the client side? Do you see clients who favor male creatives over female ones simply because of the product category or the type of work?

CATHY: I haven't seen this. I have seen female clients who think they need to be a bitch to seem powerful though. Rarely do I see female clients who are both powerful and warm/caring. Always have to play ice queen to show the (mostly male) creatives that they mean business.

JAIME: Clients really care about one thing: their business. They don’t care if you’re a lady or a guy. They want to be excited by the possibilities that you are bringing to them. As a creative, it’s your job to find this little teensy-tiny, millimeter-size place inside them where what they want to do and what they think they should do intersect. I really think it’s way, way beyond chromosomes.

SHIRA: In theory, yes. But it usually depends on level. Clients might adore their female writer, but respect a guy CD over a girl. A male creative in a pack of female clients can also touch on heated topics that would seem contentious if voiced by a women. Not sure it swings the other way.

In general,most clients like to mix it up. A guy working on fashion brings a differentsensibility that’s often refreshing. And a girl gamer is, well, just damn sexy. Clients want to make sure you understand how creative intersects with their marketing objectives. If you can tell that story in a way that connects with them personally, gender plays less of a role.

KAT: Client relationships are just that…relationships. It’s simply more likely that a male client (and men still outnumber women on the client side, too) will bond with a male exec on his agency team. As much as I hate this quote I heard recently, there’s truth in it: "At the end of the day, men head for drinks. Women head for the dry cleaners."

What about pay? We see study after study that shows women earn less than men for the same jobs. Do you think that applies to Bay Area creative jobs?

LINDA: Creative salaries whether here or elsewhere don't seem to me to be gender influenced. I have seen studies that attest to inequality in many fields but I haven't seen it in creative salaries.

JAIME: You’ll have to ask my CFO, but if you hear that I’m making less than male CDs in the area, will you let me know?

CATHY: Definitely, but that is the way of the world. All industries the world over.

SHIRA: Shockingly, it still does. But often it’s because we just don’t ask. We get paid less because we don’t know our value or we aren’t taught how to ask for more.

Early in mycareer, a top female executive at my agency (non-creative) dragged me into her office one morning, fumes visibly rising from her perfect part. She had just reviewed salaries and was furious at me for passively accepting my recent pay raise. She stood over me and burned into my soul, ‘Men are given things. Women need to ask. Go ask for more money.’ I did. And I have passed on this advice whenever I can.

Do we need to be doing anything extra to encourage women to choose creative careers?

SHIRA: I always used to say, women were smart and got out before they soured on the industry. But perhaps it’s more of a re-invention. Whether it’s creative style or personal style, women need change. So they move on. They go freelance, take a year off, or try other creative pursuits.

Men grow up, have families and stay in advertising. It’s harder for women to put in the long hours and pilot the complex matrix of kids +work. This is when women often get out completely or go in-house where the hours hover around sane.

The question then becomes less about choosing creative careers and more a matter of longevity. And in particular, how do we get women to stay in advertising? How do we help women re-invent themselves in a meaningful way within the industry?

Women need community and flexibility. Agencies in SF are open to 4-day weeks for working moms, like myself. What other creative structure or support can we give women?

CATHY: Not necessarily. I think the girls who really want it will pursue it. It is a "type" of person and temperament that matters, not gender. The girls that have it will begin to go after it. Especially with more role models, which we see a few more of popping up here and there.

JAIME: Personally, I think we should be doing extra to encourage everybody to choose a creative career! Why not? It’s so freaking fun. Just ask all the juniors that come in and burn 90+ hours a week, pumped up on Red Bull and Coronas, and then leave to go hangout/make out with their co-workers… I love juniors – male or female. They are so excited to be here! Awesome!

KAT: Rather than defining an agency’s success by its size (billings), I’m hopeful that more women will start their own small shops (as I have done) and do great work on their own terms rather than leaving the field entirely when the work/life balance tilts to an untenable place.

LINDA: I think the bigger issue is keeping them in creative careers.

Obviously women can do anything men can do creatively. When it comes to advertising creative, are there some things you think they do better than men?

LINDA: I don't think so.

JAIME: No.

Well, that was my original reaction, but then I thought about it some more. As creative people, we bring a lot of who we are to our work. Our life experiences… The terrifying Great White shark jaws you saw at the Natural History museum when you were 6. The experimental novel you just finished reading. The time you farted in front of Matt Herman in college year after chugging two cans of beer (Matt, if for some bizarre reason you’re reading this, I’m sorry. That was gross).

For me, that also includes the fluttery feeling of a baby kicking inside of me, and being able to marry a man I was totally in love with. Are those “women” things? Or are those Jaime Robinson things? Whatever they are, they certainly inform my perspective of the world. And they give me more tools in my creative paint box to use. Sure, I could use them for diapers work. But I could also use them for a basketball shoe. Which would be pretty cool, now that I’m thinking about it.

So, in summary, I don’t think I answered your question. But at least you now know I fart.

SHIRA: I hate to stereotype, but women get it done. They are better multi-taskers and mentors. There’s less bull shit and ego. And if they’ve survived many years in the industry, they hold no prisoners. They are better at communicating their needs and expectations to a team. Women are also better listeners. Men work with what’s been said. Women read between the lines.

CATHY: Definitely. Absolutely. Totally. Getting in the mindset of a female target. Whatever the product or service: cars, investments, diapers, frozen dinners. Women get women. And since most of the women do the shopping for the household, women should be creating the ads that speak to this audience.

KAT: When it comes to selling work, I think women can be remarkably successful. It’s a negotiation, where the client has critiques that the creative team must address or deflect. I have seen women be truly masterful in this regard – not wedded to the exact presentation of their thinking, but able to articulate and defend the concept and ultimately save it.

What women do you creatively admire in the industry?

SHIRA: Perhaps this is cliché, but I’m in awe of my fellow female CDs at AKQA. We meet once a month and over a few glasses of wine solve the world’s problems. Their spirit, confidence, smarts and wit are unparalleled. They give us all hope in humanity, let alone the industry.

CATHY: Adore Sally Hogshead. Supremely great writer, who as morphed into brand guru on all levels. Love her. Also, what's-her-name that wrote all of the early Nike Women stuff. Best women copywriter ever. No man could have written what she did. I felt like she could see inside of all women. (What is her name? Was it Susan Hoffman? See this also happens to women after we have kids. The brain goes.)

JAIME: That’s tough, because I really admire the work people do, not their public persona. And in our industry, it’s easier to identify the brands and agencies that are doing great work than the individuals. The women I admire are the talented ones that I have worked with. Lauren Godfrey (née “Harwell), my partner for over 6 years. She’s incredible. Billie Goldman, my insanely creative Intel client. Rita Ribera and Sara Krider are two very creative producers that happen to be female. If you have a chance to work with any of them, go for it! They all see the world in amazing ways.

KAT: Millie Olsen for being a trail-blazer, DeeAnn Budney for launching her own agency and doing stellar work, and my new friend Shelly Kramer for being such an amazing connector of women in our field.

LINDA: Mary Wells, Marie Catherine Dupuy, Anne de Maupeou, Nancy Vonk and Mercedes Erra.